Last week Tommy Heinsohn took down Dave Cowens in a battle of Celtics Hall of Fame legends and moved up the RBSF Ladder from #33 to #28. In this week’s edition of “Wednesday’s Challenge” we have two more Celtics legends battling, one past and one present, as #22 Kevin McHale attempts to hold off the challenge of #28 Paul Pierce. A look at this week contenders…
McHALE: Played entire 13-year career (1980-93) with Celtics. Boston’s #1 pick (3rd overall) in 1980 NBA Draft. 3-time NBA Champion (1981, 1984, 1986). 7x NBA All Star. 1st Team All-NBA in 1987. 2x Sixth Man of the Year (1984, 1985). All Rookie 1st Team (1980). All-NBA Defensive 1st and 2nd Teams 3x each. Career averages of 17.9 points, 7.3 rebounds and 1.9 blocks. Career playoff averages of 18.8 points, 7.4 rebounds and 1.7 blocks. Led NBA in FG% in both 1987 & 1988. In 1987 was 1st NBA player to ever shoot better than 60% from the floor and 80% from the line in the same season. Top 10 in franchise history in: Blocks per game (1st), Blocks (2nd), Games (3rd), Points (4th), and Rebounds (6th). Named to NBA’s 50th Anniversary All-Time Team. His #32 is retired by the Celtics.
PIERCE: Has played entire 10-year career (1998-2008) with Celtics. Boston's #1 pick (10th overall) in 1998 NBA Draft. Won 2008 NBA Championship and was named NBA Fiinals MVP. 6x NBA All Star. 3x 3rd Team All-NBA. All Rookie 1st Team (1999). Career averages of 23.1 points, 6.4 rebounds and 3.9 assists. Career playoff averages of 22.5 points, 7.1 rebounds and 4.7 assists. Led the NBA in points scored (2,144) in 2002. Scored over 2,000 points 4x. Top 10 in franchise history in: 3-pointers attempts (1st), 3-pointers made (1st), Points per game (2nd), Steals (2nd), Blocks (4th) and Points (6th). Holds 17 franchise records.
VERDICT: Although Paul Pierce is certainly the Celtic of the moment after his great playoff performance helped earn banner #17 this past June, McHale’s contributions cannot be overlooked here. He was able to defend anyone defensively and his low post moves were both frustrating for the opponent and nearly impossibly to stop. With 3 rings and his plethora of individual honors McHale should be a contender to move up The Ladder, not down it. This week my vote goes to #32.
Posts
14 comments:
McHale also earns 2 bonus points for:
1. Clothesline of Rambis
2. Trading us KG
I feel like I grew up with McHale, but went to college with Pierce...then moved to the same city as Pierce and hung out with him every Friday at the Fleet Center. I just feel closer to Pierce.
Pierce's maturity improvement has been one of the most surprisingly positive things to watch. That said, I'll ignore his chaotic 2008 summer issues/comments.
McHale was unstoppable and I always loved hearing Barkley talk about how he was impossible to cover. However, watching Pierce in the 2008 playoffs do whatever he wanted to defensive credit hoggers LeBron, Tayshaun Prince and Kobe (all Olympians) was even more impressive than any McHale display.
PERSONAL CHECK:
Also, my cousin's roommate in college dated Pierce (and hung out with him a lot) - and she said he is just a big dork. Cheesy jokes, always pulling pranks. Never really serious.
As for McHale, I walked by him once at the Chestnut Hill mall as he was shopping and he remains the biggest person I have ever seen. I didn't say a word to him.
Overall: Paul Pierce. If I was to include McHale as a GM in this analysis - he may win...helped the Celts win a title
This is tough one. The young vote will go Pierce and the older vote will go Mchale
I think of championships when i hear Mchale. I think of underrated when i hear Pierce.
Not saying i'm old but i'm gonna go with Mchale. Its hard to compare their play since they play different positions and have/had different duties on the court. I think that Pierce has a tougher job he defends guys with alot more quickness and speed and usually the best player on the team the C's are playing. Give a Pierce a few more years of another dominating finals performance then i'd vote for him.
My vote is for Pierce.
McHale was a dominant (production-wise), CONSISTENT, and unconventional player. He and Barkley are likely the only ones in the conversation when talking about best power forward of the 80's.
It is hard to critique a guy who basically won as much as he possibly could and a tremendous team player, but I always say Kobe was with Shaq and it is only fair to acknowledge that he had Bird in his prime, Parrish in his frontcourt, and DJ calling the shots.
Pierce played on a teams with wins in the 20s, had to corral Walker and made some memorable playoff memories doing so (most notably the greatest comeback in history, till another of Pierce's teams broke it this year). He had to cover Jordan, Kobe, and LeBron defensively.
He had to be the team leader, and did so from day 1 (despite being stabbed in the face between the draft and his first pro game).
During the greatest shooting guard era of the NBA, he excelled at the position and was a mid-high 20 PT a game guy with respectable stats in other categories. He avoided getting traded, got his championship, and did it over the man mental recklooses and the greater sports media were saying was comparable to Michael Jordan, halting Kobe's tear. He saw more double teams over his career than McHale, and though Pierce's team was great when he won, Cedric Maxwell on McHale's first Championship team was better than Kendrick Perkins is at this point in his career.
I don't need to see 3 more years of Pierce play, he is higher on the all-time Celtic list, and edges out McHale for the #22 spot.
Good points Luke. You almost got me to change my vote.
1 change though is that he was drafted in 98' and was stabbed in 2000. So the stabbing didnt take place between the draft and his first game.
Funny you mention Shaq in your comments about Pierce. Shaq is the one that gave Pierce the nickname "The Truth".
Cool.
He was also the only good thing left for us by Rick Pitino.
You can say what you will about Pierce having a weaker supporting cast, but Pierce never won a thing, even made the finals, until he had KG and Ray Allen on his team. Prior to that he wasn't even able to get out of the East in a VERY watered-down conference.
I love Pierce, but don't put him on another pedestal simply because he had worse teammates....if he had won with those teammates that would have been one thing, but he didn't.
McHale's defense, rings, and higher rank at his position all-time is what sways my vote on this one.
As I say, Pierce still has time to add to his numbers, titles included, before hanging them up, but for now I'm sticking with McHale.
I didnt really start following the celtics until 91-92. By that time Mchale was past his prime and injuries had set in. His numbers in his prime years were better than Pierce. The NBA was much different game them, or so im told. In a 1980's uptempto style with other players suited to that style i'm sure Pierce would have put up better numbers than he did in this decade. If Mchale were in his prime right now he would probably be allstar callaber center/forward, but the league seems more athlethic Im not so sure he would be as effective a defender. You cannot teach size in the NBA which may push Mchale over the top. If both Mchale and Pierce were college age and Draft eligable and you had to pick, I would have to go with Mchale and the size factor.
As much as it pains me to say this, you are wrong DK.
I knew the second I saw the pictures up of who the challenge was this week whom your vote would be cast for, followed up with some diplomatic thing like "in a few more years Pierce could change my mind."
Some of the players Pierce started with: Ron Mercer, Greg Minor, Potapenko, Milt Palacio, Mark Blount.
Some of the players McHale started with Nate Archibald, Robert Parrish, Danny Ainge, Cedric Maxwell, Larry Bird, Dennis Johnson.
It is not only unfair to credit Pierce with not winning but completely unreal. 2nd most points in the most storied franchise in NBA history. Nearly the same career averages for rebounds as McHale.
Even Tommy Heinson, prior to when we won last year (about 2/3s of the way through the season), put Pierce at #5 on his all-time Celtic list. McHale was not one of the few above him.
Again I am not taking away from McHale's career achievement which were sturdy and impressive, but he is not on as high a level as Pierce.
I challenge you to name 15 guys McHale played against (power forwards) without looking at some other website. Once you start pushing ten the names become less than stellar. I didn't even get into the next tier of guards Pierce had to matchup with, Reggie Miller, Tracy McGrady, Ginobili etc.
McHale came to the team the same year as Parrish and did not have the same pressures of Pierce coming to the team that was basically post-mortem. Already in place was Bird, Tiny Nate, and Cedric Maxwell. When they left there was DJ and Ainge. Aurbach had a continuum of draft picks and managed the team like BB.
Pierce made the most with what he had.
Though Tom's point is well-taken about drafting, as he said, Size and the fact that no 6'11"/7'0"er wants to play in the middle anymore would benefit McHale.
If it had been Pierce with Shaq in LA, his numbers may have been worse but he would likely have more than three titles, then would Pierce be more accomplished than McHale?
Though McHale gives hope to white guys everywhere who didn't make the cut of the basketball team (though he shouldn't being 6'11") he was never the focal point of an opponent's defense; they had bigger fish to fry. The same cannot be said for Pierce for even 1 season.
The fact that most of McHale's teammates are up in the rafters, and Pierce's are out of the NBA cannot be overlooked.
My vote remains Pierce.
Kevin McHale was a one trick pony whose foul shout looked like it came out of a John Waters film. He could play defense, rebound, and shoot - but he was a supporting player. If he were thrust into a leadership role he would make Ryan Leaf look like Winston Churchill. Being awkward and white is an admirable quality, but shouldn't be a handicapp in this vote. Although McHale is undeniably a "man's man" he is more likely to get my vote for People Magazine's 50 most beautiful people than #22. This is a case of where the time made the man; not the man made the time. He is comparable to Eric Montross and Yuri Welsh combined, as far as I'm concerned - stats or not. At the end of Pierce's career he will be an NBA great, not just a Celtic great.
Charles Barkley said Kevin McHale was the best player he ever went up against. When you find a Hall of Fame caliber player to say the same about Pierce let me know.
McHale is the ONLY member if the 60/80 club. When Pierce becomes the only NBA player to accomplish anything let me know.
Those who have spoken out against McHale clearly never saw him play. He looks horrible in photos, awkward running up and down the court, and that means nothing. I've seen him cover Magic AND Kareem in the same game. Who else could do that?
And giving hope to failed high school players? Why, because he's white? That ridiculous. He has a 7'4 wingspan which made him a beast offensively AND defensively.
McHale may not have had the 3 rings with the lousy supporting cast you mentioned, but he EASILY could have averaged over 30 ppg if he chose to, but the C's had to spread the ball to Bird, Parish, DJ and Danny....and McHale STILL put up ridiculous numbers.
In 1987-88 McHale put up the following numbers: ]
26.1 points, 9.9 rebounds, 2.6 assists, 2.2 blocks, .604 FG%, 836 FT%, 1st Team All NBA, 1st Team All Defense, 4th in MVP Voting.
Show me a season of Pierce's that tops that? And yes I know this is a career, not a season, but the idea that somebody with numbers like that is somehow simply a complimentary players shows a lack or either understanding or appreciation for basketball history.
As I've said before, when you get this high up the ladder it's great vs great...I just think McHale had a more remarkable career, and therefore gets my vote.
p.s. - I love your ID photo Luke
Thank you DK. The photo sums up my love for sports, and especially Boston sports along with the current climate.
Pierce had 17 games (not including this year) with 40+ point games. McHale had 2.
McHale is not in the top 10 for PPG on the Celtics.
Not sure how you can say he could've easily averaged 30.
Pierce has multiple triple-doubles, and from the records it looks as though McHale has none.
In just 10 years, he has accomplished all he has, though he is not even in the top 10 for games played. That is impressive, not a liability.
He has the most Free Throws made in a season, a game, and half.
Most points in an overtime.
Most steals in a game (tied w/Bird at 9).
He [is the only Celtic who] lead the two greatest individual comebacks in Celtic/Playoff history. (I have always been one to stay till the end of a game and not count anyone out till the buzzer sounds, but I was SHOCKED we won that one in the Finals this year)
He had to play against more than just Barkley and Malone.
As far as Barkley's comments, that means about as much to me as Isiah's comments about Bird, it is meant to incite a reaction and catch people off-guard and that is about it.
I do give him his due for dealing us Garnett.
Give Pierce the time to retire and history to set in and see who he's getting props from. Though I have as much evidence as you do saying McHale could average 30, I bet LeBron, after he soon goes into his era of domination, will look back at Pierce as one of his greatest adversary's, not Kobe. This year's series may even be relatable to when Jordan lost to the Celtics & Bird but dropped 63 in the losing effort.
More threes than Bird in a fraction of the games. Bird is Boston Gold, that speaks volumes to me.
And this year he proved he could take a back seat & is a team player, which had been the greatest critique of him. I'm with Tommy, Pierce wins the battle of the green titans.
As much as I enjoy the challenges, the one thing I don't love about them is that it feels like you (all of us, me included) end up coming across as bashing guys to support our choices. Let me just say once again what a HUGE Pierce fan I am, how great I think he is, and how thrilled I am he is a Celtic. There is no wrong choice in most of these challenges. What happens when it's Bird vs Russell...you can't say a bad thing about either. So it's really just a matter of preference, and such they both bring so many positives to the table the guy I grew up watching left a larger impression on me than the one I watch now. I think that's just natural to some degree.
I do think this has been my favorite challenge so far.
Post a Comment