Danny Ainge has run the show for the Celtics on NBA Draft night 5 times, with the upcoming draft on Thursday about to be #6. So we know Ainge has been doing a good job (title #17 is proof of that) , but how has he done on draft night? Let's review.....2003: Trades #16 & #20 to Memphis to move up and take Marcus Banks at #13 and then grab Kendrick Perkins at #27. Also takes Brandon Hunter at #56.....2004: With 3 1st Round picks he grabs Al Jefferson (15), Delonte West (24) and Tony Allen (25). Takes Justin Reed in 2nd (40).....2005: Gerald Green in 1st Round (18) and then Ryan Gomes (50) and Orien Greene (53) in 2nd.....2006: Trades #7 pick in deal with Portland, then gets back into draft by acquiring Rajon Rondo (21) and Leon Powe (49).....2007: Deals #5 pick, Delonte and Wally Szczerbiak for Ray Allen and #35, which he uses to take Big Baby Glen Davis. Also grabs Gabe Pruitt at #32.....so in 5 years he manged to turn his picks, either by drafting or trading, into 4 of the 5 starters on the NBA Champions, and then some. If it weren't for the players that he could have had (David West, Josh Howard, Kevin Martin, Monta Ellis) this could be in the "A" range......maybe Thursday night he'll get there.
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36 comments:
A closer look at things.....
2003:
Got Banks & Perkins.
Memphis took Troy Bell & Dahantay Jones with the 2 picks we traded, so obviously we got the best of that one. But we could have taken David West (18) and Josh Howard (29).
2004:
Took Jefferson, West, Allen, Reed.
Jefferson would probably be #2 if this was done as a re-draft...but could have landed Kevin Martin with one of their other 2 first rounders and Trevor Ariza was available when they took Justin Reed.
2005:
Gerald Green was projected to go #3 in that draft and Ainge took him at #18. We now know why he fell, but I still don't think it was a bad gamble. Could have taken Monta Ellis, who also slid (to 40). Did score huge points with Ryan Gomes pick at #50.
2006:
Used #7 (Randy Foye) in multi-player deal with Portland that brought us Sebastian Telfair et al. Then got back into the 1st to grad Rondo at 21, who probably is good enough to have gone #7 himself. Then traded for Powe at #49. Both would still be considered best on the board where they went.
2007:
Traded #5 (Jeff Green) for Allen and ended up with Davis and Pruitt. I still wonder who the Celtics would have taken if they had stayed at #5. Yi? Corey Brewer? Green? I thought Brewer at the time so I suppose I'll just assume I'm right since we'll never now for sure.
You are a harsh grader my friend.
When Ainge arrived, the cupboard was bare - with the exception of Pierce.
The fact that he parlayed the draft choices (Jefferson, Gomes, G. Green, J. Green etc) to land KG and Ray Allen (along with the ones he kept) and turn the Celtics into a Championship team speaks for itself.
The draft provided the vehicle for which they could acquire talent and manuever.
I don't know how you can give him anything less than an A.
Tough to give a guy an "A" when his highest pick ever was Marcus Banks, a total bust. And Gerald Green was a mere throw in for the KG deal. If he'd taken Mota Ellis he would have had even more bench power. I do think he's done a terrific job, but B+ is extremely good, not great. That Portland deal was NOT a great deal. Sebastian Telfair? The best it did was rid us of LaFrentz and acquire Theo Ratliff's cap space. I was also not a huge D-West or TA fan. B+ is by no means an insult, but Ainge certainly has not been perfect by any means.
Polobear....I am embarrassed to say that I agree with you.
BTW PB - I put that posting on the HOF posting like you asked me to, but I don't think too many people were impressed with what you had to say.
Ask this question of yourself, if Ainge hadnt traded away most of what he drafted would you still say he has done a good job?
I'll say the players he drafted and signed were good enough to be traded for KG and Jesus. And those that stayed look alot better with the Big 3 in town.
06-07 final record 24-58
Let's see what he can do to keep a winning team. I was ready for Ainge to go prior to this past season, even as happy as i am with a championship he's gonna need to sustain like the Sox and the Pats.
Again, I reiterate that McHale deserves as much credit with us getting Garnett as Danny does. Before that move, Rondo was the only draft pick I approved of. (I am speaking from an at the time mentality, before Rondo had proven himself, if any of saw Rondo's Final Four not the year of, but before he got drafted, you know why).
B+ sounds about right to me.
I think the Celts should go into the draft with a mentality that they will need to replace on or both of Posey and Tony Allen, both used for defensive purposes. Obviously they are miles apart in value, but we could lose them both. We also could lose House, but no rookie can shoot. We also need to replace Scot Pollard and if Roy Hibbert is there, maybe we get him.
If we draft a European, I guarantee that DK will be upset.
Rumors of Celtics drafting:
JaVon Hardin - 6'11 Sr. from California (Hoopshype)
JJ Hickson - 6'9 PF, Freshman, NC State (NBA Draft.net & Yahoo sports)
Nikola Petrovic - 6"11 C, from Serbia (mynbadraft.com)
Anton Ponkrashov - 6'7 SG,SF, from Russia
Courtney Lee - 6'5 SG, Senior, Western Kentucky (ESPN & NBC Sports)
Richard Hendrix 6'9 PF, Junior, Alabama (Draftexpress)
JR Giddens, 6'5 SG, Senior, New Mexico (SI.com)
I just saw clips from this 6-11 guy from the Congo. I think he is currently playing in Spain. He looks Nasty, but unfortunately I don't think he'll slip to 30...
Walpole Joe - Nice to see you coming around. I am starting to believe that you are the 2nd smartest person on this site. That is troubling.
Danny Ainge won a championship within 5 years of taking the job.
He had limited talent and limited flexibility financially.
His main assets were acquired through the draft and he used those assets to acquire the necessary talent to win.
Ainge had a plan and that required him to divest himself of payroll and acquire young talent.
Each move lent itself to the next - there is no way you can play the "what if game" - he wasn't going to keep all the players he drafted - it is like putting together a puzzle - the end result was the 17th championship in Celtics history.
You cannot look at this in a vacuum. If Ainge took Ellis instead of Green - would they have made the subsequent KG and Ray Allen deals - or would they have stood pat and been a middle of the pack playoff team?
If they didn't dump LaFrentz and get Ratliffs expiring contract - would they have had the payroll and the assest and flexibility to acquire Garnett, Allen or get the green ligth to sign a Posey and a House - being so far over the luxury tax.
DK - a better idea may be to grade on a curve. Who has done a better job in the draft over the past 5 years?
How many people have used the assets acquired in the draft to orchestrate a remarkable turnaround culminating in a championship?
DK - if your teachers graded like this - I am guessing your GPA would be a 1.0 and I am guessing GMAC and Luke would be in study hall with you.
PB- are you saying the Danny " the mastermind" Ainge knew along he was going to trade draft picks and players he drafted and/or signed to make a better team than the draft would allow him create?
Was it also in his master plan to play for the Bluejays for 4 yrs as a medicore pro basball player before deciding to become a good pro basketball player?
If thats what your saying i agree Danny Ainge is possibly one of the greatest minds sports has ever seen.
The cupboard wasnt quite bare when he took over in 2003.
2 years before Ainge
01-02 record 49-33
02-03 record 44-38
Then Ainge takes over...
03-04 record 36-46
04-05 record 45-37
Paul Pierce on Jimmy Kimmel tonight
Not only was the cupboard not exactly bare, the cupboard included a future Hall of Famer in his prime. Paul Pierce, a top-15 NBA player at worst, is not exactly a shabby start.
The Celtics were worse than bad when Ainge arrived; they were medicore. And where your a medicore team its a tough cycle to break out of. Look no further than the Washington Wizzard as an example of this.
The problem becomes that the team is constantly operating from the middle of the draft and missing out on the elite talent. The result, as we've seen, is that you get a group of good support players, but not enough guys that are able to get the team to the next level.
This situation also makes it difficult to get a coveted free agent that could be a difference maker because the team's salary cap is tied up by a bunch of guys that are making the above the league average due to their "potential".
There is no doubt that the Celtics purposely tanked last season in the hopes of getting one of the top two picks in the draft and bring in a guy that could bring them to the next level.
When that didn't work out Ainge scrambled to shake up the team because he know they couldn't continue on the same course.
DK and GMAC-
You are both certifiable.
I don't know who anonymous is on this board-but he is right on the money.
I am saying Ainge knew exactly what he had when he inherited the mess - a shade over .500 team that was good enough to make the playoffs and not bad enough to get elite talent via the draft and not in financial position to pick up top free agents.
After seeing what Antoine Walker turned out be - do you think they could have made a championship run with him as the 2nd fiddle?
Is that what you would have preferred in 2003-2007?
I do think Ainge planned all along to acquire assets to make a big move.
He tried to do it with Iverson, he was looking to do it with Paul Pierce for Chris Paul-so yes - I do believe he knew what he was doing when he acquired talent via the draft-and used draft picks in trades to shed bad contracts.
Additionally, Pierce has matured more in the past couple of years then DK has in the past 30. In 2003, he was immature and a malcontent - the Pacers playoff series a perfect example. At the time, he was not a HOF'er in his prime and he should be applauded (and honored in the rafters) for re-inventing himself.
By the way DK - if Paul Pierce's career ended today- he is not a HOF'er but would have his number retired.
With regard to the draft -nobody bats a thousand in the draft or in any move they make- my point is - Ainge is absolutely at the top of the list of NBA exec's when it comes to identifying talent and putting the pieces of a puzzle together to build a championship.
Name one team that wouldn't trade places with the Celtics right now in the NBA.
I suppose you guys would rather have Rick Pitino and Chris Wallace calling the shots?
PB - oh PB.
You are getting at me now? Losing charm fast. And to think I almost agreed with you on the Rice piece on the other page.
It is easy to say from hindsight that he made every masterful move. No doubt it worked out, and I wouldn't, nor would any real fan trade places with where we are now.
Do you remember what we got for Antoine Walker? We got Raef LaFrentz, some old Timberwolve who couldn't get run in NBA Live '95, and Jiri Welch. Welch ended up being the best of the three. Raef was FRESH off surgery. And we ended up trying and succeeding at getting Walker back. Getting rid of him at just the time where he realized he needed to put himself in check (not that I wish we had kept him). He went to the Mavs, and then the Heat and won damn near after. Also, when we did get that useless trio, I also didn't mention Raef's exuberant salary, there were two guys traded shortly after that we could've used Walker to get. Bonzi Wells got traded straight up for Wesley Person, a 6th or 7th man. (He was better than any of the three we got). And Rasheed left Portland quite quickly after that, beating out the trade deadline and all-star weekend, of that same season.
Raef was damn near seven feet, and didn't even rebound, instead shot (quite unsuccessful 20 footers).
Again, sure we got where we wanted, and I couldn't be happier about that, but to give 100% credit to Ainge, is more than slightly absurd. The rest of the league was shaken up too, to make the "puzzle" land how it did.
Whatever the draft range...call on Danny Ainge.
You Negative Nellies are making it sound like Ainge passed up Jordan to take Sam Bowie and then turned around and traded Dirk Nitowski for Robert 'Tractor' Taylor.
"Friend of Joe W." has hit the nail on the head. Ainge broke the Celts out of the vicious NBA cycle of mediocrity. The fact that Ainge was able to acquire anything for Walker twice is reason enough to give him executive of the decade. Walker wanted a huge long term deal that would have tied up the Celtics and made them perenial first round losers for years to come. Ainge had to chose Walker or Pierce to build around and he clearly chose wisely.
JBS- aka Mr. Neutral, you are the Switzerland of this Blog.
Do you only wear neutral colors?
Even the 'JBS' moniker is pretty neutral (ie cowardly and boring). Take a stance on something. I'd rather have you take a stance on something and be wrong (like DK and his Walker/Bledsoe mancrushes) than have you be dull and give us the TV listing for the night. ZZZZZZZZZZZZ
This just in from JBS "2002 World Series of Poker on ESPN Classic tonight at midnight!"
Again, Raef (injured and nearly as overpriced as Walker), Mitchell (Sam I believe his first name is, but it could've been Doug and no one would know the difference) and Jiri Welch (who no one had heard of before this trade). Walker was an All-Star at the time, surely we could've got something for him.
Do you think there is a reason we didn't get "someone" for him? Ainge wasn't the only one in the league who knew this guy was not a team player.
This past year Walker's agent confirmed that Walker was looking to get out of Minnesota and on to a contender....but nobody wanted him.
this passed year is a large difference from 5 years ago. I am not saying people were knocking down the door for him like a McGrady at the time, but if he is getting placed on All-Star teams, surely someone likes him/thinks he is marketable.
So then, excluding that we just won a week ago, you would say that getting Raef and those others was a good move for us... what did they do, any of them, on the court for us??
If you ask me we should've kept Battie. At least he rebounded and blocked shots. Instead we shelled out big dough for Mark Blount. Another error by Ainge.
Look, I said B+ was good. And clearly I am happy about where we are now, but lets not worship this guy like Mecca, there were a lot of contributing factors that got us here.
"Friend of Joe W." and PB may want to hire a lawyer and sue Steve Bulpett of the Boston Herald for plagiarism.
In Thursday's Herlad this is the headline "Ainge a true draft whiz. Without his foresight Celts title not possible"
A few nuggets from the article:
"He will be lauded as a master trader..... If he is master of anything it is the draft."
"Without his competence in the past five dispersals, Ainge wouldn't have had the currency to fetch the 17th banner"
"Ainge said all along that he needed to draft well in order to develop those players or deal them in quantity for a superior player"
"It is cliche and fact that the NBA draft is an inexact science. And it is fair to say that no one in the NBA has done it better than Ainge during the past five years."
Read the full article here:
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view.bg?articleid=1103353
or if you can't copy and paste the link just search google news for Ainge whiz
Boston Herald "Patriots recorded Rams walk-through day before Super Bowl in 2002"
a few monthes later...
"we are sorry, and we retract our false story."
Didn't u just criticize DK on the other page (Rice vs. Doerr) for going about making opinions based on what writers had to say...
a little inconsistent.
The grade you give Mr. Ainge is suppose to be based on his draft.
As for Walker, this loser is only 31 years old so there shouldn't be a big difference between now and 5 years ago. He has a shitty attitude and everybody knows it and has known it since he was at Kentucky. Do you think Ainge didn't get other/better offers because he was out golfing or he didn't try? When your phone doesn't ring Danny it is the sound of the other NBA GMs looking to trade for Walker. It take two to tango. You can't trade Walker for an All Star if nobody wants him/can afford him.
One writer in Miami who hates Pat Riley wrote that Pat Riley is a genius because "He unloaded Antoine Walker the day after an NBA scout said no one could unload Walker.
Dude, I am not a Walker fan. I am just saying that in his prime, we should've got something better than 3 no names for him.
I love how no one gives McHale any credit for giving us Garnett. Do you think there is another GM in the league that would've made that trade. What did they get besides Al Jefferson?? The current dunk champion?
They traded a perennial all-star for the worst team in the league's lineup, minus their best player.
McHale loved Garnett. And probably still does. He didn't want to see him go out like Patrick Ewing and Charles Barkley, and when his old team, in much need of help, was in a position where (once obtaining Ray Allen) would be a desirable position for his loved, aging KG, he pulled the trigger. For KG, Red, and the Celtics. His team wasn't competing for a title anyway- they had tried all they could with Garnett.
(And yes there is a difference between 26 or 27 and 31)
Where in my post did I state that I based any of my opinions based on Steve Bulpett's opinion? I wrote how I felt BEFORE the article was published. And I certainly didn't change my mind based on what he writes. Although, I would be open to changing my mind if he presented FACTS I was unaware of.
And a more appropriate comparison would be if I ever changed my opinion of Ainge based on weather he was voted NBA Exec of the year. In DK's logic I would say "I was going to give Ainge a B, but since he was voted GM of the year I change my mind to and give him an A+" Being voted GM of the year doesn't change what Ainge accomplished as a GM, just like being put in the HOF doesn't change Rice accomplishments on the field.
I simply pointed out that Bulpett had the same opinions as PB and Anonomys. They (and me) had these opinions BEFORE Bulpett's article and we didn't change our mind based on what he wrote. I was jokingly suggesting that Bulpett may have changed his mind after reading PB and Anon. (hate that name). The quotes I pointed out seemed similar to the sentiments of the others.
You're right. Ainge is sheer genius. I am so pumped for the next ten championships he will surely get us by 2020, putting himself in Red's category.
Which of these 2 players would you take?
Player A
21 PPG
11 RPG
1.5 blocksPG
1.4 assistsPG
salary $2.5 million
age 23
Player B
18.8 PPG
9.2 RPG
1.25 BPG
3.4 APG
salary $24 million
age 32
The players are obviously Jefferson and Garnett. I am not even remotely saying that I would rather have Jefferson, and I know that good stats on a bad team are misleading, but it is not like McHale got nothing back in return. He got back a young, relatively cheap player who appears poised to be a perenial all-star for a guy who was old, very expensive and never made it out of the first round of the playoffs. The Wolves, like the Celts a year ago, clearly had to tear it down and start over again.
You can take or leave the other guys involved in the trade, but McHale didn't give away Garnett.
I do have to wonder though how he still has a job. He ha made a lot of blunders and they hate him in Minnesota now. He hasn't put a winner on the floor yet. He is no Ainge....and neither is LB.
Jefferson's salary will go up when it is time to resign. And yes he is a good, maybe someday great player. But it is not an equal trade, and McHale had no illusions that it was.
He simply resigned his aspirations to win in Minnesota with Garnett. Rightly so, after the Joe Smith scandal and everything else.
Garnett was at worst top 7 players in the League for the previous 9 or 10 years. Not Al. Again Al was good, and has upside, But if you think McHale traded expecting to win - and is surprised at how his team's record changed & ended up this season, you are a fool. When Kobe was trying to get traded last year, why were we not even considered? Why weren't any other big stars on the market for us, even with Pierce thrown in?
We got a steal. And the cashier was there, just had his head turned the other way.
(LA did the same thing later in the season. Even worse. Do you think Jerry West was doing "the best job he could do," and the phone wasn't ringing for Pau Gasol, before he got the oh so tempting offer of Kwame Brown, and a beyond unproven Crittendon?)
Don't forget Pau before the finals, he was widely regarded as a hot commodity.
Just so you know Garnett had gotten out of the first round. (The year he won MVP).
The biggest blunder, and primary reason they hate McHale in Minnesota, is the exact trade we are debating. You are apparently the only person in america who fails to see the one-sidedness of it... Yet you think McHale should be fired.. ?!
I wonder why I am not puzzled.
People have been calling for McHale's head for a lot longer than this past season. The year he screwed up the Joe Smith illegal signing they were ready to get rid of him. The fans in Minnesota are convinced he has something on ownership.
I don't think McHale expected to win this year either, I think he looked at it as the first year in a rebuilding.
Garnett playoffs record with Minnesota:
Year 1 missed playoffs
Year 2 Lost in first round
Year 3 Lost in first round
Year 4 Lost in first round
Year 5 Lost in first round
Year 6 Lost in first round
Year 7 Lost in first round
Year 8 Lost in first round
Year 9 Lost in Conference Finals
Year 10 missed playoffs
Year 11 missed playoffs
Year 12 missed playoffs
You are correct that he didn't lose EVERY year in the first round. Once out of 12 years....Wow! Plus 25% of the time not even making the playoffs, so that doesn't count as a first round loss either. I was way off.
EFF rating for the entire league in 2007-2007,
Garnett #9
Jefferon #12
Like I said, I am very happy to have Garnett but Big Al is a player. He is very under appreciated/underrated because he is not loud or flashy.
mOne other point to make in regard to the cat fight between WJ and Darth Vader's Son -
Al Jefferson has already singed his extension.
5 years and $65 million.
He played this last season for $2.8 million.
So for 6 years of Al Jefferson, the Wolves will have paid $67.8 million.
The Celtics signed KG to a 3 year extension for over $51 million (plus another $8 million in trade incentives) on top of the $45 million he was owed on the last 2 years of his deal.
That is 5 years of KG for a total of $105 million.
We all agree that KG is a great player and changed the culture in Boston - but if you ask most GM's in the league if they would rather have:
A. 6 years of Al Jefferson from age 23-29 at a total cost of $68 million (along with a rotation player in Gomes and 2 first rounders) - OR -
B. 5 years of KG from age 32-37 for $105 million, I am guessing a lot would take Jefferson.
That does not constitute a lopsided - do the Celtics a favor deal from McHale.
The Celtics happened to be a perfect fit because they didnt need KG to carry the full load and he could settle in as a great 2nd option behind Pierce.
Not sure why the big argument - Ainge has done a great job - McHale is a lousy GM but he did get excellent value for KG. It will ultimately be viewed as a good deal for both clubs.
I didn't say you were way off. Just merely pointed out you were wrong. Which you were. If you are aguing with me about something I didn't argue, clearly your true argument is lost.
Somewhere along the line here we got off the topic of the draft ability of Ainge. He has passed up 2 all stars and 1 rookie of the year. Again its easy to say after he wins a championship, that he has done a great job. I'll ask the same question i asked previously.
Prior to this year what did you think of Danny Ainge as the GM for the Boston Celtics? By the way some of you guys post i assume you know each other outside of RBSF. So i'm sure if you are Boston sports fans you had a t leat 1 conversation about Ainge and the job he was doing as a GM (president of basketball operation).
So before this past season what was your opinion of Ainge?
Or if you had a converation about this topic with someone else on this board what did they tell you there opinion was?
GMAC- After the 24-58 season and the lack of improvement he made going into that year. This past season was going to be his last. 4 years of drafting and trading and he wasnt getting the job done. A championship gets him another few years.
I also see people making arguments why the trade wasnt lopsided for the twolves and i do agree with that. Even though we won a championship he did trade away the future of the team to do it. As for a draft grade he passed on some really good players and if he is such a master trader why couldnt he work something out to get some of the super stars that have been drafted since he's been in office.
I know its about the draft but since we have kinda steered away from just draft discussion. I havent noticed anyone give credit to Doc for being able to get 3 career "go to guys" to agree to give up some of that for the benefit of the team.
After the next 3 years we will really see if Ainge is as good as some people to make him out to be. Winning is one thing but sustaining is totally different.
Hey WJ you said that you anonymous and PB all had the same thought as Steve Bulpett...
"He will be lauded as a master trader..... If he is master of anything it is the draft."
(this comment is post chamipionship)
that same guy in March 2007 wrote this.
"The current Ainge program is either going nowhere or going way too slowly to be acceptable."
(this comment is pre championship)
Would you say that in March 2007 you had similar belief as Bulpett?
I said that Bulpett had the same ideas as us, not the other way around.
You make it sound like we read Steve Bulpett and regurgitate his ideas into the RBSF. I was just pointing out that he may have stole a few lines from PB or Annoyingmous since they had the same sentiments a few days before the article was posted.
To answer your question though, Ainge was probably my favorite Celtic from back in his playing days and I thought he was one of the smartest guys in the game, so I have/had blind faith in him as a GM. I was nervous and unsure at times, but I bought into whatever PR he was dishing out at the time. However, I have to admit that if his name was Jan Volk I would have been calling for his head on more than one occasion.
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